NAVIGATING DIVORCE WITH DIGNITY: A MORE INTENTIONAL APPROACH

Divorce, though a difficult process, doesn’t have to be defined by acrimony, destruction, or damage. It can be a tool for transformation—a process that, when approached with clarity, respect, and intentionality, not only preserves what matters most but can also lead to a more peaceful, redefined future.

At its core, divorce is not the end of a family but a shift in its structure, one that requires a delicate balance of emotional clarity and thoughtful decision-making.

Divorce Is Not a Weapon—It’s a Tool for Transformation

For many, the idea of divorce conjures images of conflict, loss, and battle. But it doesn’t have to be that way. The reality is that divorce, when approached with the right mindset, is not a weapon used against your spouse; it’s a tool for transformation. It allows individuals to step away from a relationship that no longer serves them, without tearing apart the family structure entirely.

The shift from seeing divorce as a destructive force to recognizing it as an opportunity for growth can make all the difference. For those with children, this transformation is even more significant. The relationship between ex-spouses doesn’t end with the divorce—it evolves into a new form, one rooted in co-parenting and mutual respect for the well-being of their children. Divorce, in this sense, becomes an opportunity to re-establish the family dynamic on healthier, more respectful terms.

Focus on Family First, Finances Second

One of the most common pitfalls in the divorce process is prioritizing finances before family. While it’s certainly necessary to address the division of assets and financial matters, it’s crucial to first lay the foundation for your post-divorce family structure. This is where emotional and relational groundwork must be done long before the financial and legal aspects take center stage.

The emotional complexity of divorce requires a thoughtful, measured approach. Rather than immediately diving into negotiations about money, take the time to build a solid co-parenting plan and ensure that communication lines remain open between both parties. Focusing on family first gives you a better chance at an amicable and healthy separation, rather than a drawn-out battle over material assets.

This focus on family is particularly vital when children are involved. It ensures that the emotional needs of the children are prioritized and that both parents remain invested in their well-being long after the divorce is finalized.

Divorce as a Reformation, Not an End

In traditional narratives, divorce is seen as the end of a family. This view is limiting and misses the reality of modern relationships. Divorce doesn’t have to signify the destruction of a family; it can mark the reformation of it. The structure of the family may change, but the family unit continues.

This is a critical point, especially for parents. The relationship between parents continues even after the marriage ends, albeit in a different form. The goal of a “good divorce” is to maintain a relationship that allows parents to be present for their children’s important moments—graduations, weddings, and the arrival of grandchildren. This reformed family unit is just as valid and valuable as the one that existed during the marriage.

For those without children, the grief of divorce is no less real, and the loss can be just as significant. However, the shift in perspective—recognizing that the family isn’t being destroyed but restructured—can provide a sense of clarity and hope. Divorce, in this case, allows individuals to redefine what family means and what their future holds.

Early Intervention Can Make All the Difference

A critical mistake many couples make is waiting too long to seek help. When the relationship begins to show signs of strain, addressing those issues early on can prevent the situation from deteriorating further. Working with a therapist, whether individually or as a couple, can help clarify whether the marriage can be saved or if divorce is the healthiest option.

Waiting until the conflict escalates is often what leads to prolonged emotional pain. If couples begin the process of emotional reconciliation early—before the situation reaches its breaking point—they can make decisions with a clearer, more compassionate mindset. Divorce doesn’t have to come at the peak of conflict. It can be approached with intentionality and respect, allowing both parties to step away without leaving irreparable damage in their wake.

Divorce Is Not About Winning; It’s About Creating a Better Future

Another shift that is necessary in the divorce process is moving away from the mindset of winning and losing. Divorce is often framed as a zero-sum game, where one side must “win” and the other must “lose.” This framing only serves to escalate conflict, making the process more adversarial than it needs to be.

Instead, divorce should be viewed as an opportunity to create a future where both parties can continue their lives with respect and mutual understanding. This doesn’t mean the process is easy or painless, but it does mean that the emotional toll can be lessened when both sides approach the process with a focus on the future, not the past.

When the focus shifts from fighting for control or dominance to ensuring a healthy, peaceful future, the divorce process itself becomes far more manageable. It’s about finding common ground, particularly when children are involved, and coming to an agreement that serves the collective well-being.

Navigating Divorce with Emotional Awareness

One of the most challenging aspects of divorce is navigating the emotional intensity that comes with it. Divorce isn’t just about dividing assets; it’s about untangling a shared life. This can bring up feelings of grief, betrayal, and disillusionment, all of which are perfectly natural but can cloud decision-making if not addressed.

It’s important to allow space for these emotions and recognize their role in the process. Rather than suppressing feelings of anger, sadness, or resentment, allow yourself to feel them fully. This emotional release, when processed with the help of a therapist or coach, can lead to greater clarity and a more constructive approach to the rest of the divorce process.

The key is to find an outlet for these emotions before they escalate. Writing a letter to your ex (that you don’t send) or speaking to a trusted professional can help release pent-up feelings, making room for rational decision-making when it comes time to discuss things like co-parenting schedules or financial matters.

Divorce Can Be a Path to Healing

Divorce, when handled with dignity, intention, and respect, doesn’t have to be a destructive process. It can be a journey toward healing, transformation, and a redefined future for all involved. By focusing on family first, seeking early intervention, and moving away from the traditional adversarial mindset, couples can navigate the process in a way that fosters growth, peace, and long-term stability.

At its best, divorce is not the end of a family but a reformation—a chance for individuals to redefine their lives, their relationships, and what family means to them moving forward. It’s not about surviving the process, but about thriving after it.

Divorce is more than just a legal process—it’s a profound life transition. At Miller Law Group, we help you navigate both the emotional and practical aspects of divorce with clarity and intention. With over 150 years of combined experience, we guide individuals and families in New York to make thoughtful, informed decisions that support long-term stability and emotional well-being.

Divorce doesn’t have to be a battle. We empower you to approach this transition with dignity, focusing on what truly matters—your family, your future, and your peace of mind. Whether you’re uncertain about what comes next or unsure how to redefine your identity, we provide steady guidance every step of the way.

Take control of the process and move forward with confidence. With the right support, divorce can be an opportunity for reinvention and growth. Let us help you create the future you deserve.

Transcript

Karen McNenny (00:00):

What if we left while we still liked each other? Maybe that there was still love. That doesn’t mean romantic love and connection, but that’s a very challenging idea. And it’s a heartbreak to me that someone we did have a love story with, that we created these other lives, these children from love, that the divorce doesn’t discount everything that came before it. But so often we wait until that pinnacle of high conflict and then everything crashes out and then we’re on fire.

Katherine Miller (00:29):

Welcome to Divorce Dialogues. I’m Katherine Miller. This is where we have honest, thoughtful conversations about divorce, the emotional, financial, legal, and family questions no one prepares you for. From deciding whether to separate, to navigating the process with dignity, to rebuilding what comes next, divorce dialogues is here to help you find clarity, perspective, and a better way forward. Divorce is often framed as something you survive, something you get through, something to endure. And in many ways that makes sense. It’s disruptive. It’s emotional and it can feel like a loss of control. But that framing can also really be limiting because it assumes that divorce is just something that, well, it just happens to you rather than something you have any real agency within. And what I’ve seen over and over again is that the way people approach the process, the mindset that they bring to the process, the decisions they make and how they handle the conflict has a significant impact, not just on the outcome, but on how they experience the divorce itself and how they feel about themselves going through it.

(01:41):

So the question really becomes, what would it look like not just to get through divorce, but to do it well, not perfectly because none of us can, and certainly not without difficulty because it is painful and it’s hard, but in a way that is intentional, informed, and aligned with what actually matters to you. And that’s what this conversation is really about. Divorce is often framed as something you survive, but if it could actually be something you do well. In this episode, I’m joined by Karen McNetty, the founder of the Good Divorce Academy, host of The Good Divorce Show, and author of the book, The Good Divorce. Through her work, Karen has built a framework and a platform dedicated to helping people navigate divorce with clarity, intention, and respect. And we’re going to talk about what it really means to have a quote, good divorce, why it’s so hard to achieve and how shifting your mindset can change not just the process, but your life after it.

(02:39):

Welcome, Karen. It’s a pleasure to have you on the show.

Karen McNenny (02:41):

Thank you so much, Katherine. I appreciate having a microphone to talk about this important topic.

Katherine Miller (02:46):

I think that sometimes people think that a good divorce is an oxymoron, but I really don’t think that it is. So what is a good divorce? What does that actually mean? And once we talk about that, I’d also like to know about how it’s different from how most people experience divorce.

Karen McNenny (03:02):

One divorce survivor to another, Katherine, what it means to me isn’t even so much the divorce process. As you said, it is grief. Good doesn’t mean easy. It’s hard, it’s emotional, it’s complex, it’s logistical, there’s legal support that’s needed, things we … Most of us arrive and we’re like, “We don’t know how to do this. ” But really for me, the good divorce methodology and what my co-parent and I were seeking was really the good family post-divorce. And I think that’s the platform that I’m trying to remind people that the divorce process itself is this one little thread and a complex tapestry that we call family. Now, if you don’t share children, it’s a little easier to cut things away and not have to interact again. Again, not making it easy, but you don’t necessarily have a forever relationship. But if you’re divorcing your co-parent, chances are there’s going to be graduations, weddings, grandbabies, holidays, moments that not only do you as parents deserve to delight and celebrate with your kids, but your kids also have the right to not have to negotiate their parents’ BS on their wedding day because of damage that was done five, 10, even 25 years earlier through the process.

(04:29):

So the legal process of divorce and how we navigate it really is the incubator for the habitat that the family is going to exist in forever until it dissolves through death or other ways. So we’re setting the stage, if you will, for that forever family structure.

Katherine Miller (04:46):

And how do you think that differs from the way most people think about divorce?

Karen McNenny (04:51):

Well, some of it is where we start. And often people identify the starting gate, “Okay, we’ve decided to get divorced. Now what? Call an attorney.” And we begin our conversation about finances. That’s usually where attorneys are needed. It’s where their strength area is. You know this, these are services that you provide and we move into the fiscal and the division of assets. I really believe that if we put more focus on family before finances, we might have a better runway. And I spent 25 years as a business consultant, still do, as well as a divorce consultant. And whenever we’re going to implement a big change in an organization, we look at project management, what’s the right order of things to do to get the best outcome and to bring people along? And that also starts with communication. And one of the first things people will ask is, “How do we tell our kids?

(05:43):

We decided yesterday we need to tell them tomorrow.” I’m like, “Why do you need to tell them tomorrow?” Because we decided, I’m like, “Well, you’re not ready to have that conversation.” Well, but we don’t want to be deceitful. Deceit is different than discretion. And right now, there’s some things that you all need to sort out amongst yourselves before you sit down with your kids. And I would even suggest that you do some preemptive communication with their teachers and coaches and grandparents so that there is a circle of support that’s ready to hold those kids and that the kids don’t have to become the messenger of our families getting a divorce. The people who love and care for them and spend a lot of time with them during their week also has that information. I like to see a parenting plan written before we start dividing assets, otherwise there’s always the chance that the kiddos are going to end up on the negotiation table around time.

(06:35):

So those are some of the perspective changing things that we found beneficial. And certainly with my clients, when we put an emphasis on family before finances, and there’s a lot of coaching support and communication and the rupture of the relationship and how you’re living and if you’re still under one roof and all those things long before we even start a discovery process, which can be emotionally very igniting for most of us because we see divorce as a zero sum game, there’s going to be a winner and a loser. And I really like to see that more of a teeter-totter where we can get both parties balanced on the other side.

Katherine Miller (07:13):

Yeah. No, it’s interesting because money is really a way, it’s a tactic to get to the result rather than the result itself. And if you think about it, like money is how we arrange to live in this place or we pay for those vacations or for that school or for whatever. And typically in negotiations, we think of it as the end result and it’s not. And I think what you’re saying is, what if we think about what the result is we’re looking for and then we figure out the money as a way to make that happen?

Karen McNenny (07:39):

The money’s just another thing we have to do. But typically in our traditional narrative around divorce in America where we’re speaking, one, it means divorce is a weapon. That’s the first thing I think we have to shift is really to identify divorce is not a weapon and it should not be used as a weapon. It’s a tool of transformation. And most of us are sitting in a not great marriage, a dysfunctional marriage, a less than fulfilling marriage. And I think, okay, then the divorce should be the journey to make that better. That’s why divorce exists, to make a not great thing better. Why would we spend tens of thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars, bleed our soul, destroy our relationship, and end up with a worse marriage or a worse divorce than our bad marriage. I’d say, “Just stay in your bad marriage,” instead of blowing everything up.

(08:27):

And sadly, divorce often that weaponizing, it sits on the shelf of marriage as a threat. We all have it there kind of in the shadow and, “Oh, you said the D word. Am I going to put the D word on the table? Are we talking about the divorce?” And I think just because we’re talking about divorce doesn’t mean we’re going to have one. There is, I think, great wisdom for anybody who’s getting married, who is married, who is educating themself around what are we agreeing to in that marriage and what might it mean if it were to unravel, to dissolve? And it’s the same thing through that business lens. You never go into a business partnership and set up your LLC with your new business partners without also talking about, “And now when this comes to an end.” That doesn’t mean we want it to come to an end.

(09:13):

Just like when I get on the airplane, every time they’re going to tell me, “Here’s what you need to know if there’s turbulence and we’re going to crash every single time.” And we don’t sit there thinking, “Why are the airlines so pessimistic? Why do they all think we’re going to crash?” Nope. And that’s a shift that I think if more people could kind of take the threat out of divorce and then know when it is in the conversation, it doesn’t need to become a weapon. And my understanding so often is that our attorneys are doing what they’re trained to do. Correct me if I’m wrong, Katherine, which is to fight for their client, unless you’re in collaborative law or in mediation. But if you’re working with a litigating lawyer, they’re going to do exactly what you’re paying them to do, which is to fight for as much as they can get inside a system that is built on conflict, not cooperation, and they’re incentivized financially by duration and escalation, not, can we get this done quickly, right?

(10:14):

It just continues. I’m 15 years post-divorce and I’m grateful that we found our way and I didn’t start doing this work until five years ago. It was through the pandemic that I really came to revisiting a topic that I’ve been really passionate about. And I think that where we begin is often where we end.

Katherine Miller (10:40):

Yeah. Well, first of all, I want to say that all marriages end, whether it’s by death or divorce. And the law has something to say about what happens when it ends, whether by death or divorce, that laws are different, but it definitely, I think, behooves people to understand that it will end and there will be a transition to a post-marriage life, at least for one of you. It’s not the abnormal thing, it’s the normal thing. That’s what happens. And given the statistics, there’s a good 50%, 46% chance that a first marriage will end by the age of 55. So it’s much more likely than that the plane will go down.

Karen McNenny (11:17):

Exactly. And yet we don’t give it the same credence to look at it as education. And that’s part of the work of the book. You and I, our podcast, is trying to get people education around the process so that we don’t arrive deer in the headlights ready to fight because that’s the only thing we’ve ever been told or the only thing we believe is possible. And that’s not true.

Katherine Miller (11:43):

Yeah. Before we move on from this subject, I just want to mention the difference in divorce when you do or don’t have children. So sometimes in our experience, and Karen, let me know if you see this differently, sometimes people come in and they were married for a few years, they don’t have children, they just go their separate ways, and it’s just kind of like a breakup. And they’re like, “Okay, it’s sad and it’s painful, but it’s not a really big deal.” And then when people have been married for a longer period of time, whether or not they have children or not, in some ways, if they don’t have children, it’s harder than if they do. And the reason for that, I think, I’m curious what you think, is that at least parents can agree we love our children. We have our care for our children in common.

(12:23):

So we can set aside our own potentially, we can compromise or we can set aside our own version of what our ideal result would be because it’s better for our kids. And that allows them to kind of come together, even if they disagree what the best thing is for their kids and parents often do, but they can agree they love their kids more than anyone else on the planet does. And that is a unifying factor that can often help them align on other issues and other disputes. Whereas if they don’t have children and the struggle can often be to make sense of their lives, their marriage without that unifying factor of the love for the children. So if there’s a listener out there who’s thinking, “Well, I don’t have kids and my divorce is really hard and painful.” Yeah, that is really hard and painful.

(13:13):

And it’s just as tragic sometimes and difficult and heartbreaking as it is when you do have children. So I didn’t want to minimize that.

Karen McNenny (13:22):

Absolutely agree. And I see the wisdom and recognizing that the children are sometimes the neutralizer that the parents can rally around. And when we don’t have that, then it’s just a battle. And sometimes it’s a battle over the betrayal of love, a betrayal of the story and sometimes of your partner. And none of us get married setting out thinking that we’ll be the one, we’ll be the one of the 46%. Nobody walks down the aisle thinking, “Well, this is good for today until the next thing happens.” Yeah, that pain, not having children does not minimize the experience, the grief, the loss, the re-identification, the disorientation that happens when you go from partnered to unpartnered. And I think we underestimate that as a society. I think in many ways we’re neglectful of individuals going through divorce in terms of how we can support them and be more empathetic.

(14:21):

I think for a while there’s been a lot of shame and isolation around divorce. You brought this upon yourself. You couldn’t make it work. You’re taking the easy way out. All of these misnomers. And if you haven’t been through divorce, you might think it’s the easy way out, but anybody who has will know that these decisions don’t come quickly, they don’t come easily, and they’re definitely not often a path of ease. There’s great challenges and duration and unraveling your love story and your life from another person.

Katherine Miller (14:53):

Divorce dialogues is brought to you by Miller Law Group. We believe divorce isn’t just a legal process, it’s a human transition. At Miller Law Group, we help people navigate divorce with dignity, clarity, and respect, focusing on conversations that lead to better outcomes for families. Learn more at miller-law.com. So where does the breakdown typically happen, do you think? Is it the emotional, communication-based, structural, and how the divorce is handled?

Karen McNenny (15:23):

I think we could poke around to a number of things. I’m going to go way upstream with a challenging thought that the first thing we do wrong in our divorce journey is we stay too long. I think a lot of couples stay too long. And again, because of that social narrative of shame, isolation, you shouldn’t you gave vows, we are such a change accepting culture, change your job, change your hair, change the color of your hair, change where you live, change your name. So much support for a change-centric culture, unless it’s your marital status. Then we’re not so supportive culturally, and there’s a variety of reasons of why that comes about. So I think because of that, people sort of stay. And I think we also have a narrative that you and thou shalt not change your marital status and instigate a divorce unless the house is on fire.

(16:21):

There needs to be infidelity, there needs to be abuse. There’s a judge and jury that then justifies, okay, you get a pass, here you go. Here’s your hall past a divorce. It’s made up, but I think it exists. I think it existed in my own journey because I hear people all the time like, “Well, it’s not like anyone’s beating me. It’s not like the money’s being burned up in a strip bar every weekend.” And I would suggest, Katherine, tongue in cheek, it’s true. And that’s why I say when we stay too long and we know our truth, it’s like we see that off ramp and we keep driving by it and we make another loop and we can drive and by it, well, eventually we start making it bad enough to leave. And then infidelity might pop its head up. Addiction might rear the ugly side of that behavior.

(17:10):

There might be even just the insidious, “I no longer see the good in my spouse I only see,” because it’s true. We always see what we want to see. So now I’m making a list of they don’t live the dishwasher right. They don’t ever do this chore. They never cut the sandwiches the way the kids … The littlest, teeniest things now become these huge grave betrayals of the domestic relationship so I can make a list. I talk about this in the book. I have a little essay and it’s called The 500 Not The Five. And I was coming home knowing my truth because I think a lot of times we know our truth long before we speak it. And again, we can’t speak the word to even explore like, “Well, what if we separated? What would that look like? How would we live? What would the insurance look like?

(17:55):

Our kids, what would we want for kids?” I always say the best time to talk about divorce is before you need to talk about divorce. That’s the time to talk about it.

Katherine Miller (18:03):

That’s why I like prenuptial agreements.

Karen McNenny (18:05):

Agree. I think a prenuptial agreement should be part of every wedding package. I also think that every parenting plan should be written as soon as your children turn one.

Katherine Miller (18:13):

And not that I want to take us off on a tangent, but statistically speaking, people who have prenuptial agreements are less likely to divorce.

Karen McNenny (18:20):

I love that statistic.

Katherine Miller (18:23):

Right. So what does that say? It’s not that it’s the cynical we’re planning for the end of the marriage before it begins, is that we’re willing to plan for the marriage, including a possible transition when it ends. And again, as I said, all marriages end with a big death or divorce.

Karen McNenny (18:38):

Yeah. And those airplanes stay in the air because safety and early intervention and prevention is part of what keeps them in the air. I’m going to call that that prenuptial. It’s so wonderful. So coming back to this idea of where do we get it wrong? And I was just referencing something I reflect about in the book and I would come home and I would just start seeing all the things that didn’t get done while I was on my business trip and dad’s home with the three and five-year-old. I’m like, “Wow, you didn’t do this and not didn’t done in the laundry and the dishes.” And he’s like, “You know what? It’d be really lovely if you came home and saw the 500 things I did while you were gone and not the five that I didn’t, but I wasn’t looking for the 500. I was looking for a way to write myself out of that marriage and felt that I needed to have justification to show the judge and jury in my own mind and maybe possibly even in my external community.” It’s so bad.

(19:35):

But really, what if we left while we still liked each other? Maybe that there was still love. That doesn’t mean romantic love and connection, but that’s a very challenging idea. And it’s a heartbreak to me that someone we did have a love story with, that we created these other lives, these children from love that the divorce doesn’t discount everything that came before it, but so often we wait until that pinnacle of high conflict and then everything crashes out. And then we’re on fire because you don’t leave the house. It is the little mayonnaise jar in the fridge and you take it out and it’s like, “Oh, there’s some mold in there, but most of the jar is good.” So we wipe out the green flux and the lid, we put the jar on, we stick it back in the fridge. We’re like, “I’m keeping that jar mayonnaise.

(20:17):

I’m not throwing that out. ” It is going bad. So how long do we let it go bad before we fix it?

Katherine Miller (20:24):

It’s so interesting, Karen, because of course, I don’t think either one of us is advocating leaving after one bite. And there is a maturation of a marital relationship that starts with what we call the honeymoon phase, where everything is wonderful. There’s nothing that person can do wrong and everything seems peachy and lovely and your love matures. It’s less exciting maybe as time goes by. So finding that place where you have that realization that this is not working anymore, I think that’s a challenging thing for people to do. And I think there is some guilt and shame around it, but there’s also a sense after a period of time of who am I not married to you, that identity thing that is also hard to kind of sort out. So for somebody who’s just at the beginning of thinking this or is listening to us thinking, “Is my marriage over?” How should they think about that and what should their mindset be about that?

Karen McNenny (21:26):

Well, I’m no guru to tell anyone when their marriage is over or not, but maybe some things to pay attention to, one of which is I am a big supporter of couples counseling. I think we should fight for our marriages. I think early on we should get with professionals individually, super helpful, know thyself, but you’re always telling your own story when you’re with your own therapist, but when you’re together and we arrive there with curiosity, like really trying to understand the other person, I think so often in marriage. And I’ve been doing mediation for a long time in corporate initially before attorneys get called, come in and help people see what they’re not seeing. Sometimes it’s like we’re sitting in the same movie theater watching really different movies and you get out to the popcorn stand afterwards and someone’s like, “That was so fabulous.” And they’re like, “That was the terrible movie.” We’re living in the same house and the same marriage, but that doesn’t mean that we’re living the same experience of that marriage.

(22:24):

I often say, Katherine, my kids got through school and they had a lot of education about how to do long division and almost no education on how to have a difficult conversation. So we’ve got reading, writing, and arithmetic, and I want to see relationship added to that, like relationship literacy. So if you’re thinking, is my marriage this, that, how are we doing that? Most of us come under skilled into our relationship world with our coworkers, our neighbors, the people who don’t align with us religiously or politically. We’re not very good with healthy discourse. And then when it’s in the marriage, like you said, healthy discourse is part of the good part. Sometimes when no arguing is happening, the fight is over, that can be a sign that you’re done. There is nothing more to fight for. It could also be a matter of safety. And I want to make clear in a disclaimer like you did, Katherine, that sometimes we find ourself in a marriage that is violent, that is unsafe.

(23:25):

There is an active addiction that is causing disruption. There are conditions in which absolutely go find yourself a Katherine Miller and get your protections in place. Mental health issues that aren’t being addressed can be another situation in which kind of the good divorce hand in hand, let’s walk down this aisle together, right? We fought for our marriage. Well, now fight for your divorce. And if you’re with children, then you’re fighting for your family, you’re fighting for the future of that family. So you both can sit side by side at the Christmas concert and at the wedding and enjoy the grandkids. The idea that the marriage is ending, not the relationship. If you share children, your relationship continues. It’s just being renovated and the family absolutely continues. So diving into time with a therapist, if you are questioning the health of your marriage can help you recognize, is this a growth period or is this a period of decay and we’re on our way to death and we can wait until it’s stinking up everything or we can recognize it and have a more elegant exit.

Katherine Miller (24:33):

I mean, I think it’s really a reformation of the family. One of the things that I think is really, really interesting from a legal perspective, but also I think the law is finally catching up to where people are in terms of the definition of what a family is. And that a family does not mean a mom and a dad married to each other with two and a half children, right? It is creative. And you are still, as a divorced parent, still family to your kids, which make you family to each other regardless of the circumstances. Somebody might be listening to this thinking, “Well, sometimes the emotions are running high and the stakes feel so personal and it feels like I’ve got so much on the line and that feels really vulnerable.” So Karen, how do you help people stay grounded and focus on the goal even when that’s happening and the emotions are swirling or all around?

Karen McNenny (25:23):

Well, I think part of it is also giving ourselves permission to feel all the feelings, to know that there, as Katherine Woodward Thomas would talk about in conscious uncoupling, there’s a rupture and working with a coach, working with someone who is not just helping you disentangle the visible parts of the marriage, but also the invisible, and that might be your own support. And recognizing you’re going through grief, there’s this metamorphosis, as you identify, Katherine, who am I without this person? Who am I without my kids 24 hours a day, seven days a week? There’s so many layers of grief that are taking place. So I know with my clients, just normalizing the big emotions, finding an outlet. I’m one of the, I think, a rare breed that I work with both co-parents simultaneously. That’s part of how you can do this better is that it’s not even the same side of the table.

(26:20):

I call it a round table relationship. We’re at the table together and there’s chairs for our children or our business partners or our extended family, lots of ways to look at that. And if we’re sitting at that table knowing that my clients, I’m like, “You’re going to want to write a nasty gram one day. You’re going to just be so irritated and so angry. And I’m going to tell you, write it, get it all out and send it to me. Don’t send it to them. Send it to me and I’m going to witness it and we’re going to process it and you’re going to beat your chest and your fist because otherwise it’s like a beach ball in the pool and you push it down and you push it down and the deeper you push it, the more pressure it gains. And eventually that beach ball, boing, boing.

(27:05):

You don’t know when it’s going to come up, where it’s going to come up, who it’s going to hit.” So we’re leaving a lot of the emotional pressure through the journey, which can be the value of like with Katherine’s team, when there’s coaches and mediators and other professionals, because I don’t know about you, but I don’t know very many attorneys who also have a master’s in social work. There is a different skillset that supports the emotional, the invisible process and the divorce journey that then helps you come to your wise mind, that executive function. Because all that emotional hijacking is our limbic brain and it’s going to happen. But if you try to deny it, I think you’re in greater danger. So having an outlet to process the anger, the resentment, the betrayal, the grief, the sadness, the failure, all of those things along the way then allows you, “Oh, now we have to make some decisions about our schedule with our kids and the financial picture of how we’re going to support our kids and ourselves.” And I think there’s also can be a softening.

(28:11):

I really delight when I get to the negotiation part, which sometimes is three months after working through some of this emotional journey and the house. And suddenly I hear a spouse say, “You know what? I think I’m going to have greater earning power. I know my retirement’s going to grow. I don’t want to pull that from your retirement account. I really think you should sit with that. ” Or, “I want to make sure that they have the car that works better because I love tinkering in cars. I’ll be okay.” You come back to this empathetic place of looking out for each other in the whole. Again, it’s not a weapon, it’s a breakup and it’s sad and emotional. So when there’s opportunity to be thinking about the other, just asking that question of ourself and the divorce process, how are they doing? Just that. How are they doing emotionally?

(29:02):

How are they doing financially? And you might not get an answer and you don’t even have to ask it, but as soon as you ask that inside yourself, first about your co-parent or the spouse you’re divorcing, how are they doing? It shifts your mindset. And then together, if the two of you can keep asking that question about your children, how are they doing? What are they doing right now? And that’s the goal. That’s the only question you have to keep coming back to as parents. How are they doing about their new crush? How are they doing with the bully? How are they doing with their spelling test? How are they doing with their getting their driver’s license? The things that kids still need by way of support from their parent team is to be able to come together on a regular basis. And because we love these children more than anyone else on the planet will love them.

(29:49):

It’s us. How are they doing? And then we go from there.

Katherine Miller (29:55):

For somebody who’s listening, what is one reframe that can immediately Shift how someone might approach divorce.

Karen McNenny (30:03):

I’m going to highlight a couple things that we’ve talked about. One, divorce is not a weapon. It’s a tool of transformation. Number two, you’re not a broken family. You’re a two home family. You’re just a two home family and the family continues. And then also to remember that everything will be okay in the end. And if it’s not okay, it’s not the end. There’s a long tail, a long shadow of divorce. And I hear many times, as maybe you do, Katherine, five, 10, 15 people down decades like, oh my gosh, we just had coffee the other day, like old friends. We were reminiscing about … People often get there whenever that might be. We’re indifferent. That’s what our therapist told us. Your goal is to become indifferent towards each other, which isn’t the absence of feeling. It’s that I don’t get triggered by you anymore.

(30:51):

I can see your nuances and the things that irritate me. And again, your spouse is the same person as your ex- spouse, same person, same dynamics.

Katherine Miller (31:00):

But that is a beautiful thing that day you’re no longer triggered by them.

Karen McNenny (31:04):

We’re in charge of the gas pedal. You don’t just have to wait for the long journey of time to do that work. You can also choose it. And if you’re listening and thinking, “Well, I’m there, but they’re not. ” I get it. Behavior is contagious. Emotions are contagious. So you can be the powerful one to just yield more, to bring more kindness, to bring more grace. And I’m telling you, in the right conditions and circumstances, it will catch on in your spouse because as soon as we’re both fighting, the fight continues. But as soon as one person gives up the fight, then it’s not that interesting for the other person. And your good divorce is actually not dependent on the other person as you move forward and beyond the legal.

Katherine Miller (31:51):

100%. All right. One last question. What’s one thing that you wish people understood before they began the process of divorce?

Karen McNenny (32:00):

You don’t have to start with an attorney. That actually doesn’t need to be your first call. Sorry, Katherine.

Katherine Miller (32:06):

Well, if it is your first call, it should be someone who is going to help you understand what your options are.

Karen McNenny (32:11):

That’s right. Yep. To become educated, don’t just dive into the legal separation of assets. Divorces more than that. And if people can understand that, again, if there’s children involved, you have a forever relationship. So what is the foundation that you’re building now? And to think of it as a tool to improve the family, not make it worse.

Katherine Miller (32:42):

Great. Well, Karen, thank you so much for being my guest on Divorce Dialogues. It’s been a pleasure.

Karen McNenny (32:47):

Thank you for, again, sharing the microphone and helping to amplify to all the families that there’s other ways to approach this journey.

Katherine Miller (32:55):

I have a few more reflections on my conversation with Karen McNeney about the good divorce because as I said at the beginning of the show, many people do think of that as oxymoronic, meaning impossible, contradictory on the face of the term, but it’s really not because so many people divorce. I mean, the statistics that I mentioned in the show, 46% of first marriages end in divorce by the age of 55, those are genuine statistics and the statistics for second and third marriages are much, much worse than that. And by worse, I mean that more of those marriages end than 46%. And so is it possible to make that transition to a place of peace and serenity and future growth and even a good relationship? And I think the answer to that is yes. It’s yes if you want it to be. If you’re focused on the future, focused on making something positive out of the experience of going through this together, because the thing about conflict and divorce is of course a conflict is that you and your ex are engaged in that conflict together.

(34:04):

You share that conflict. You’re both a part of it. And in order to bring it apart, you can do that intentionally or you could do it with a saw. And if you do share children, yeah, that is a real reason to focus on doing it intentionally, carefully, and proactively building your future lives as co-parents. But even if you don’t have children, you are disentangling a shared life. And that is worthy of respect and it’s worthy of honoring your own dignity of who you were as a married couple, who you were as a person married to the person that you’re divorcing and who that person was and is, and what you respected and loved and cherished about him or her or them in the marriage and in the marital relationship. So I do think that when you are considering divorce, don’t wait until you’re screaming at each other all the time to consult a professional, to meet with a therapist.

(35:12):

A therapist can help you much better earlier on when you first notice the breakdown in communication and the breakdown in the marriage. That’s when you should go. There’s no shame in seeking help to repair something. And once you do make a decision about ending your marriage, you should do that with intention and do the research. While Karen McNetty says, “Don’t call a lawyer first.” I think that the question is you could call a lawyer first, but make sure you’re calling a lawyer who’s not just going to sign you up for the War of the Roses or Kramer versus Kramer or some litigation train that cannot be stopped, that does treat the negotiation as a zero sum game and seeks to escalate rather than deescalate the conflict between you. There is so much there and so much possibility for what a good divorce looks like. But what a good divorce looks like for one person might be very, very different than what it looks like for another person, and it’s worth thinking that through as well.

(36:16):

If this conversation was helpful, share it with someone who might need it. And if you’re navigating divorce yourself, you’ll find more resources and episodes at miller-law.com. Make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.